Johannes en Paulus en de vrouwen.

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jaapo
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Johannes en Paulus en de vrouwen.

Berichtdoor jaapo » 06 sep 2011 21:23

Vragen die mij bezighouden: 1. In een flink gedeelte van het Johannes-evangelie spelen de vrouwen ten tijde van Jezus' zijn op aarde een prominente rol. En bij Johannes is het zelfs een vrouw die als eerste getuigen mag van de opgestane Heer. Bij de andere evangelisten ligt dat anders. Jezus heeft zich trouwens nooit over vrouwen in het algemeen uitgelaten, evenmin over homo's, maar dat terzijde. 2. Paulus is in sommige brieven niet zo positief over vrouwen. Maar kan deze verklaring ook kloppen?: In sommige gemeenten, waar de christenen (een naam die Paulus zelf nooit bezigde), in kleine groepjes samenkwamen, kwam het voor, dat vrouwen het hoogste woord voerden en daarmee een goede meditatie in de weg stonden (of een rustige, doordachte meningsvorming). Daarom heeft Paulus in brieven aan enkele van die gemeentes gewaarschuwd voor al te overheersende vrouwen en ze bijbels op hun plaats gezet. Die brieven waren niet voor ons in 2011 bedoeld! Mening?
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*Annet*
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Re: Johannes en Paulus en de vrouwen.

Berichtdoor *Annet* » 06 sep 2011 21:27

1) Wat is nu precies je vraag?

2) Waarom gelden die brieven anno 2011 niet meer? Als Paulus toendertijd die vrouwen Bijbels op hun plaats wees is dat nu toch nog steeds Bijbels? Paulus wist niet dat die brieven in de Bijbel opgenomen zouden worden want de Bijbel bestond toen nog niet. Die vrouwen zijn dus ook niet Bijbels op hun plaats gezet.
ja, dat is mijn mening dan he.....

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Re: Johannes en Paulus en de vrouwen.

Berichtdoor jaapo » 06 sep 2011 22:26

De vragen zijn: 1. Valt jullie dat ook op? Zo ja, wat is de verklaring? 2. Wat vinden jullie van die opvatting over waarom Paulus zo over vrouwen schreef? Hij grondvestte zijn opvatting toch op de bijbel (OT)?
Verder nog: waarom moet een vraag direct al beantwoord worden met een tegenvraag? Lijkt mij een teken van onzekerheid; een afleidingsmanoeuvre om tijd te rekken. Het gaat niet om dit item, maar in het algemeen kom je zo'n reactie vaker tegen. Niets persoonlijks bedoeld.
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Re: Johannes en Paulus en de vrouwen.

Berichtdoor Jozo » 07 sep 2011 00:29

2. Wat vinden jullie van die opvatting over waarom Paulus zo over vrouwen schreef? Hij grondvestte zijn opvatting toch op de bijbel (OT)?

Paulus was wat dat betreft aardig zijn tijd vooruit. Vrouwen kregen een rol, ook al was deze beperkt. Vrouwen hadden meestal weinig tot geen zeggenschap, dus wat dat betreft gingen ze erop vooruit, ook al lijkt dat door onze ogen niet direct het geval te zijn. De kans is ook aanwezig dat Paulus zo over vrouwen schrijft omdat hij zich (gedeeltelijk) aanpast aan de heersende opvatting ipv zich te baseren op het oude testament (maar dat is maar een gedachte van me, die misschien iemand hier direct onderuit kan schoffelen :wink: )

P.S. Waarom hoor ik altijd mannen over dit onderwerp en nooit vrouwen?
"I want to know God's thoughts...the rest are details."

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Re: Johannes en Paulus en de vrouwen.

Berichtdoor *Annet* » 07 sep 2011 05:34

jaapo schreef:Verder nog: waarom moet een vraag direct al beantwoord worden met een tegenvraag? Lijkt mij een teken van onzekerheid; een afleidingsmanoeuvre om tijd te rekken. Het gaat niet om dit item, maar in het algemeen kom je zo'n reactie vaker tegen. Niets persoonlijks bedoeld.


Ik weet niet precies het antwoord en zette het in de vragende vorm. Niet als afleidingsmanoevre bedoelt maar meer als suggestief antwoord van het zou zo of zo kunnen zijn. Het is mijn ervaring dat als ik hier iets neerzet als vaststaand feit, van het is zo en zo, er altijd wel een aantal personen zijn die het beter weten en mijn antwoord de grond in boren.
ja, dat is mijn mening dan he.....

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Re: Johannes en Paulus en de vrouwen.

Berichtdoor Janvanverweg » 07 sep 2011 05:36

Hieronder een paar stevige uitspraken en vervolgens een lange verdediging van het recht van de vrouwelijke discipel om te doen waartoe christus haar geroepen heeft uit "Ekklesia" een boek van Victor Choudrie:
Victor Choudrie leid in India een gemeente stichtings werk. ik heb zij vrouw een paar keer ontmoet en ook een vrouwelijke medewerker die in een paar jaar tijd 5000 gemeenten gesticht heeft. (alles keurig gedocumenteerd en controleerbaar)
Victor komt uit een andere cultuur en schrijft op een confronterende manier (die naar mijn mening in zijn cultuur past)
lees daar doorheen en controleer zijn argumenten, bid dat de Heilige Geest met je mee leest.

hier een paar stellingen:

1. The Great Commission is also for women as they are disciples of Jesus and therefore
they have also been commanded to make disciples, baptize and equip them. (Matt.
28:19; Mark 16:15-17)
2. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are also for the women, to prophesy, cast out demons and
cure diseases. They have also been given power over all the powers of the enemy.
(Acts 2:17,18; Luke 9:1,2; 10:19)
3. Women are also a chosen generation, royal priests and God’s personal possession.
Jesus shed His blood to make all believers, including women, to function as priests of
His Ekklesia and as kings to reign on earth. (Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 1 Pet. 2:9; John 15:16)
4. There is neither male nor female in Christ. Women can sing psalms, teach doctrines,
speak in tongues, interpret and fully participate in the edification of the Ekklesia,
including giving baptism, serving the Communion and plant Assemblies. (Gal. 3:27-
29; 1 Cor. 14:26)
5. Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to women also. Whenever two or three women
congregate in His name, it is an authentic Ekklesia because Jesus is present and they
can ask for anything in unity, which glorifies God, and He will do it. (Matt. 16:19;
18:18-20)
6. Fivefold equipping gifts were given by our Lord to His Ekklesia, which includes
women. They can be apostles, prophets, teachers, shepherds and evangelists and equip
the saints for different ministries for the edification of the Body of Christ. (Eph. 4:11-
13)
7. Women are also created in the image of God (Gen. 1:27). They are ambassadors of
Christ, appointed to reconcile the whole creation. One day they will all wear beautiful
white robes, hold palm branches in their hands, stand before the throne of God and
worship Him. (Rev. 7:9,10; 2 Cor. 5:17-20 )

en hier is een hoofdstuk uit het boek dat over 'vrouwen' gaat

WOMEN AND THE EKKLESIA
WHY DID J ESUS NOT CHOOSE A WOMAN DISCIPLE ? Many believe this to be a cultural issue.
But Jesus was never daunted by Jewish culture. He talked to a Samaritan woman and later
stayed in the village. Jesus allowed a prostitute to kiss His feet in the house of Pharisee.
Right inside the synagogue He made a bent woman to stand in front. All these were
against Jewish culture. By not choosing a woman disciple, Jesus was simply modeling
“same-sex discipling”. Paul followed it through, when he gave clear instructions to
women elders to equip younger women (Titus 2:3-5). We can avoid a lot of innuendoes
and sex scandals in the Ekklesia, if we adhere to this model.
W OMEN , THE O RIGINAL E KKLESIA P LANTERS : The first thing Jesus did after His resurrection
was to tell a woman to “Go and tell the brethren.” Ever since then, women have been at
the forefront of telling the good news to the brethren all over the world. Many women left
their homes and were praying with the disciples for ten days with one accord (Acts 1:14).
The women were set on fire by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. Since then they
have played a very important role in the growth of the Ekklesia. The women were the first
ones to open their houses for the Assemblies to meet. In fact, all the house Assemblies in
the NT have the name of the housewife mentioned. Examples include Mary, the mother
of Mark (Acts 12:5, 12), Lydia (Acts 16:14,15, 40), Apphia (Philem. 2), Nympha (Col.
4:15) and Priscilla (Rom. 16:3). The 16th chapter of Romans has the names of nine
women who facilitated the meetings in their homes.
M EN T URN THE L IVING O RGANISM INTO A D EAD O RGANIZATION : When house churches
shifted to sacred buildings, men took over, and wrecked the Ekklesia by changing her into
an institution. This is why Jesus never compared His Ekklesia to a man, but to a Bride.
Our national constitution enshrines equal right to women for nation building, which is
based on the NT, equality all men and women before God.
W OMEN C ONTRIBUTE T HEIR N URTURING G IFTS : The contribution made by women in
planting and nurturing the Assemblies throughout the history of the church has been very
significant. Women have special qualities like mothering, which is very essential for the
Assemblies to grow in an environment of love and care. Martha was concerned about
hospitality; Mary sat at the feet of Jesus and carefully listened to His teachings. The
Samaritan woman went from house to house and brought the people to Jesus. When
persecution broke out they went to prison (Acts 8:3), and they were also devoured by
lions and wild animals along with the men. They opened their homes for the believers to
pray all night. (Acts 12:12,13)
C OVER Y OUR H EAD OR ELSE S HAVE AND S HUT U P : The instruction given to the women of the
Ekklesia in Corinth was specific to them as there were some special circumstances
prevailing there. Corinth was a port city serving the merchant ships of the Aegean Sea to
the east and the Adriatic Sea to the west, and abounded in sailors, slaves, sex, alcohol,
idolatry and filth. Ships were loading and unloading at all hours of day and night at
Cenchrea, the harbor of Corinth. People were buying and selling, masters were yelling at
their slaves and sometimes whipping them, and the temples were ringing their bells.
There was a cacophony of many languages. There was a huge temple dedicated to
Aphrodite, the Greek goddess of beauty whom the Romans called Venus. This temple was
famous for erotic female statues and for all kinds of sex-related worship. There werethousands of priestesses who were ritual prostitutes. They proudly displayed their shaved
heads. Many of these women were converted and started coming to the Gatherings, and it
became necessary for them to grow their hair and cover their heads as a mark of their
transformation. The women were to cover their heads only while praying and
prophesying (1 Cor. 11:5,6). This situation was not prevalent in any other Ekklesia; hence
Paul clearly said that he was not setting any such tradition for other Assemblies. “If
anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the Ekklesias of
God.” (1 Cor 11:16) However, in violation of this clear teaching , the 5th century church,
made it compulsory for bishops and priests to be tonsured, thus creating further divide
between the clergy and the God’s people.
B ABBLING B ANNED IN THE E KKLESIA : Again, there was a special situation in Corinth. The
very powerful high priestess of the famous temple of Delphi used to sit on a special
tripod, in an underground chamber, in order to be possessed by the spirits and go into a
trance. She would then speak in an incoherent and unintelligible language, which was
considered by the devotees as the oracles of the goddess. She advised ordinary citizens
about their fate and also warned Oedipus about the dangers of murdering his father and
marrying his own mother. Modern scientists like John Hale, from Louisville University,
would have us believe that there was a geological fault from which noxious gases leaked,
which intoxicated the woman, making her to babble in a drugged state. There was also a
spring of water from which the high priestess drank with the devotees as part of a ritual
bonding. Paul used this simile when he says that “we have all been made to drink into
one Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:13). Whatever the explanation, Paul used the Greek word “lalein,”
which means babbling or making incoherent sounds. Paul simply told the women of
Corinth not to babble in the assembly, but did not stop them from speaking. Again, this
did not apply to other Ekklesias. (1 Cor. 14:33-40)
P ROPHETS AND M EN ALSO N OT A LLOWED TO B ABBLE : Paul used the same word “lalein” and
another similar word “sigato” for men also. He told them that they should not speak in
unknown tongues in the Ekklesia unless there was an interpreter. This was just to
distinguish that whoever was speaking, whether a man or a woman, was speaking under
the influence of the Holy Spirit and not an evil spirit. He gave this injunction to the
prophets also, and their prophecies had to be cross-examined by other prophets (vv 29,
32). Men were asked in at least two different places to refrain from “babbling”, but
surprisingly no one stops men from speaking in the Ekklesia. Though it is mentioned
only once in this chapter, immediate action is taken by the church to stop women from
speaking. (1 Cor. 14:28,30,34)
P EACE NOT S ILENCE : Astonishingly, in this decadent environment in Corinth and Cenchrea,
a most successful Ekklesia took root. This was a minor miracle in itself. Many heathens
joined the church from a demonized background. They were used to frenzied pagan
worship, and therefore Paul was particularly anxious to make sure that there was no
confusion (vs. 33). Actually, he is not asking men and women to be mute spectators (vs.
39), but he is merely pleading for the proceedings to be peaceful and orderly so that the
Ekklesia is edified. Everyone, had full freedom to express themselves (vv 31, 40)
N O W ASHING OF D IRTY L INEN IN P UBLIC : Did Paul expressly stop women from teaching
doctrines in the Ekklesia? “I suffer not a ‘woman’ to teach nor to usurp authority over
the ‘man’ but to be in silence” (1 Tim. 2:12). Paul used the Greek word “gune” for awoman, which in this context means “wife.” Similarly, he is using the Greek word
“aner” for man, which in this context means “husband.” Paul is telling married women
not to teach their husbands in public. Again, the Greek word “hesuchia” for silence also
means avoiding argument, quiet, peaceable etc. What Paul actually said, “I do not permit
a ‘wife’ to teach or to have authority over her ‘husband’ but to be peaceful.” Paul does
not want wives to teach their husbands in public, thereby belittling them and usurping
their authority as priests and rulers of the family. He told wives and husbands to keep
peace in the Ekklesia and to discuss contentious issues at home, rather than showing their
differences in public. (1 Cor. 14:34,35; Eph. 5:22-32)
S UBMIT TO H USBANDS O NLY : Paul and Peter asked wives to be submissive to their
husbands, just as husbands were asked to love and honor their wives; otherwise, their
prayers will be hindered (1 Tim. 2:11; 1 Pet. 3:1, 7). Submitting does not mean
subordination but willing submission and respect for each other’s role. This does not
exclude full participation of women in the Ekklesia. It is not for other men, including
Pastors, to make somebody else’s wife submissive to their diktat. Paul clearly mentions
that he has no specific instruction from the Lord for unmarried women, which means they
have full freedom to participate in the Ekklesia (1 Cor. 7:25). While there is a clear line of
authority, Christ is the covering of the husband and the husband is the covering of his
wife. Eve acted without the covering of her husband and got into difficulty. In the NT
times, women led in prayer, prophesying (1 Cor. 11:3-5, 16). It is not the length of hair or
the size of the head scarf, that is the issue but submissiveness, both for men and for
women. Fortunately, in many cultures, married women normally cover their heads.
Regrettably, our leaders impose their authority on other men’s wives and do not allow
their full participation.
T HE NT IS F ULL OF W OMEN T EACHERS , P ROPHETESSES AND D ISCIPLES : Christianity loudly
proclaims justice, honor and dignity to women but its high priests have made it a bastion
of male supremacy. We must stop parroting the boast of gender justice, openly challenge
the outdated practices and workout deliverables of true biblical Christianity. In the early
church, women taught because they were primarily family gatherings. Paul put some
restrictions on married women to teach their husbands in the formal assembly but they
were freely permitted to teach informally. They taught good things (Titus 2:3,4). Priscilla,
and her husband, took Apollos, a mighty expositor of the Scriptures, and explained to him
the “Way of God” more accurately (Acts 18:24-26). Obviously Priscilla did most of the
teaching; otherwise her name would not have been mentioned seven times in the NT, five
times before her husband Aquila. Tabitha served the poor and was called a disciple (Acts
9:36). Philip’s four virgin daughters were prophetesses. (Act 21:8,9)
P HOEBE T EACHES D OCTRINES : In A.D.1400, a monk rearranged Paul’s letters and put
chapters and verses, not in the chronological order in which they were written, but
according to the complexity of the doctrines. Although the letter to the Galatians was
written first, and then Thessalonians and Corinthians, he decided to put the letter to the
Romans first as it had the maximum amount of doctrine, and Philemon last. Paul needed
a smart person who could handle the Christians of Rome, the capital city of the world, to
go and teach the doctrines in the letter to the Romans. He chose Phoebe ( means
“delightful), a business woman from Cenchrea, the harbor city of Corinth. She had learnt
her doctrines under Paul, Barnabas, Silas, Timothy, Titus and many others who were
traveling to Corinth, which was five miles away. They had been guests in her house.Although the modern church would like us to believe that she was only a dumb
deaconess, Paul had given instructions to the Ekklesia of Rome to give full honor and
respect to Phoebe. This does not mean that they were waiting with garlands, but they
asked her to come and teach them all the doctrines. (Rom. 16:1,2)
B RETHREN I NCLUDES S ISTERS : The Greek word “adelphotes” for brethren, does not mean
just brothers, but “fraternity” or “community.” When Peter addressed the one hundred
and twenty in the upper room, where women, including Mary, the mother of Jesus, were
present, he called them “men and brethren” (Acts 1:14-16). “Adelphos” means “the
womb.” This shows the very close relationship the Ekklesia fraternity must have had with
each other. In the Jerusalem convention, called together to sort out Jewish traditions like
the Sabbath and circumcision, the fraternity, which included women, were present. Peter
got up and addressed them as “men and brethren” and a little later James said the same.
130 references in the NT refer to brethren, meaning brothers and sisters, who led the NT
Ekklesia, not the pastor, who is a Johnny come lately (born circa1600 A.D). (Acts 15:6,7,
13)
J UNIA A N O UTSTANDING W OMAN A POSTLE , U NDERGOES A S EX -C HANGE O PERATION : Jesus gave
fivefold ministry gifts to His Ekklesia. These are not gender specific and include
apostleship for women (Eph. 4:11). Paul praises a woman, Junias, of the Roman Ekklesia,
as an “outstanding apostle” and probably one of the founders of the Ekklesia in Rome
along with Andronicus (perhaps her husband) (Rom. 16:7). A papyrus dating back to 200
AD calls her Julia. John Chrisostom, the Bishop of Constantinople (AD 347-407), wrote
“O how great is the devotion of this woman that she should be counted worthy of the
appellation of apostle.” Junia continued to be a female apostle in the Scriptures until the
13th century when she underwent “sex change surgery” at the hands of translators
suffering from “misogyny” (hatred of women). They deliberately mistranslated her name
from Junia the woman, to Junias the man, as they did not find the apostleship of a woman
palatable. They did the same to Nympha or Nymph (a sea goddess or a maiden) into
Nymphas, which belongs to indeterminate sex (Col. 4: 15). We find that this attitude and
practice have been all too common. She had suffered persecution, imprisonment and
finally martyrdom at the hands of Nero. Let us not forget what early Christians, under the
iron fist of pagan Rome, had to suffer to proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord. For Junia, being
an apostle was not a matter of privilege, but prison and death. We know that the Roman
Ekklesia was already well established before Peter and Paul traveled there, and Junia had
become a Christian before Paul did (Rom. 1:7-13; 16:7). It makes sense that men, who
object to the full participation of women in the Ekklesia, cannot be part of the Bride.
W OMAN F ACILITATED THE H OUSE E KKLESIA M EETINGS : What do we know about the
apostles? According to the NT, apostles are ordained by God (Lk. 11:49; I Cor. 12:28;
Eph. 4:11). They are workers of miracles (II Cor. 12:12; Acts 2:43), witnesses who
proclaim the resurrection of Jesus (Acts 4:33), founders and leaders of Assemblies (Acts
4:37; 15:4; I Cor. 12:28), preachers (1 Tim. 2:7; II Tim. 1:11), teachers (II Pet. 3:2;
Jude:17; Acts 2:42), disciplers (Eph. 4:12,13), and finance managers of the Ekklesia (Acts
4:34-37). While not every apostle was necessarily involved in all these, there is no reason
to think that a recognized apostle like Junia was barred from any of them.
N OT A PPOINTING W OMEN AS E LDERS IN THE C HURCH IS P LAIN H OGWASH : In the OT, Miriam,
Deborah, and Hulda are mentioned as prophetesses. In the NT, Anna and Philip’s fourdaughters are recognized as prophetesses. Priscilla was certainly another female apostle,
who traveled with Paul along with her husband. She is mentioned several times by Paul
in his Epistles. The names of several women are mentioned throughout the epistles.
Unless women played a dominant role, Jews would never mention their names. The
Greek word “presbuteros” is translated “elder” for men but for some strange reason,
“presbuteras” the feminine form has been translated as “older women”. It can just as
easily be translated as “female elder”, an “elderess” or even a “wife of an elder” (1 Tim.
5:2). Obviously this was done deliberately to avoid appointing women as elders in the
church. Just like today, in the early church, the majority consisted of women and they
exerted considerable influence. The main qualifications required of an elder was that he
or she should be of good character, hospitable, able to manage their house well and
should be able to make disciples (Titus 1:5-9; 1 Tim. 3:4). Women amply qualified for
this post, therefore, it was natural to have women elders. This is Scriptural because
“women are also a chosen generation, a holy nation and royal priests.” The women have
full rights to function as priests, which includes worshipping, discipling, baptizing,
teaching and sharing the Lord’s Supper, etc. They also prayed for the sick and delivered
the demonized (2 John: 1; 1 Pet. 2:9). All these activities led to strengthening of faith and
rapid multiplication of the Assemblies.
I N THE E KKLESIA , E VERYONE C AN T EACH : In the house Assemblies, everyone participated.
Everyone included women and children. “...Whenever you come together, each of you has
a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, and has an interpretation. Let all
things be done for building up” (1 Cor 14:26). Paul further states that everyone could
prophesy, which presumably includes women (vs. 31). He clarifies that “one who
prophesies speaks to the people for their edification, encouragement, and consolation” (1
Cor. 14:3). The women were taking part in all these functions in the Ekklesia.
C AN W OMEN B APTIZE ? Baptism is normally the preserve of the clergy, although there is no
biblical basis for it. There is nothing in the Bible, which militates against women
baptizing. In fact, the Great Commission expressively commissions every single believer
to go and make disciples and baptize them (Matt. 28:19). If women can be blood-bought
priests and kings (Rev. 5:10), one of the basic functions of the priesthood is to baptize
new believers. Historically, it is well known that on the Day of Pentecost, Jewish women,
following their tradition, congregated separately around the pools and baptized each
other. This is why the Lord baptized many women with the “holy fire.” Men, especially
priests, and even the apostles, had no role at the poolside. The death of Lord Jesus tore
the curtain apart so that all can have direct access to the Father. Unfortunately, the church
is always trying to draw the curtain again on the women. This is an important issue
because in our culture, especially, village women have problems in being baptized by
men. Thousands are ready to be baptized immediately by sisters of faith, but if they were
to be baptized by men, permission would be needed from their husbands, and that is not
always forthcoming. It is only logical that if women can pray and heal the sick and
deliver the demonized, then they can certainly dunk them in water.
P IMPS , P ROSTITUTES AND E UNUCHS ARE H EADING FOR THE E KKLESIA : Entry of pimps and
prostitutes in the Ekklesia of Corinth was too shocking a change for the sober, orthodox
Jews. It destroyed everything that a religious Jew held sacred. They had to sit and
worship as equals and even eat food that was not kosher. The baptism of the Ethiopian
eunuch was a remarkable event. God had promised that His house shall be called a houseof prayer for all nations. This includes eunuchs and “He will give a better name and place
to them than that of sons and daughters” (Isa. 56:3-7). In Madhya Pradesh, many
eunuchs have recently won state elections. If long-haired pimps and head-shaven
prostitutes could join the Ekklesia of Corinth (1 Cor. 11:5-16), then we must expect a
mighty harvest of gays, homosexuals, perverts, lesbians, prostitutes, and others who are
making themselves eunuchs for Christ (Matt. 19:12). It does not matter how far out you
have drifted, the Lord can find you and forgive you. He died to do so. “There is no Jew
or Gentile...neither is there male or female, for we are one in Christ.” (Gal. 3:28). The
Ekklesia of Jesus is a counter culture, which is shockingly different from the highly
sanitized version of the church, being dished out today. It is a place, where the scum of
the earth can find love and eternal life. (1 Cor. 1: 26-31;
4:13)
A RE Y OUR S ERVANTS P ROPHESYING ? God promised that in the last days, He will pour out
His Spirit on all flesh. While you are dreaming dreams and seeing visions, your sons,
daughters and your servants should be prophesying and bringing people into ‘The Faith’.
Dreaming dreams is not enough, it must be converted into reality through action. Sadly,
most Christian parents are interested in extracting work from their servants and their
children getting more marks in the school, than prophesying. (Acts 2:17,18,21; 8:5-8;
21:8)
S LOWLY BUT S URELY W OMEN ARE T RANSFORMING THE W ORLD : Thousands of house
Assemblies are appearing throughout the world. China, Indonesia, Korea, Africa, South
America and the Philippines are far ahead. For example, the largest church in the world,
led by Paul (David) Yonggi Cho in South Korea, has over 100,000 cell churches. 80% of
these cells were started by ordinary women. Today the center of gravity of Christianity
has already shifted from the West to the East, because over 70% of the believers are now
in the 10/40 countries. Participation of the women in general and ordinary housewives in
particular, is the main reason for this remarkable shift.
W OMEN ARE THE K EY IN C LOSED C OMMUNITIES : Zenana or harem is a secluded area for
Hindu and Muslim women in the Indian subcontinent. In Nepal, Sri Lanka, and
Bangladesh and as far as Iran, house Gatherings are being established mostly by women.
In some Muslim countries even owning a Bible is forbidden and worshipping together is
a crime. Only believing women can enter behind the curtain, reach those unfortunate
sisters, and bring them to Christ. Praise God that secret Assemblies are being established
behind the curtains.
T HE E KKLESIA N EEDS F RUIT G ATHERING W OMEN : Much of world does not know that today,
a great army of women is going out with tears and bringing in the sheaves of a harvest of
souls (Psalm 126:5,6). Many are illiterate and cannot communicate that they are turning
the world up side down. They are not in the TV or even in the Christian magazines. They
have very few resources, but are bathed in prayer and resonate with the will of God. If
Lydia, Priscilla, Apphia, Mary and many others opened their houses to the Ekklesia, and
the despised Samaritan woman could bring her whole village to the feet of Jesus, then
why not us, who have many privileges? Tragically, many privileged women are sitting in
the pews as dumb dolls in a clothes shop, all decked up, but nowhere to go. God has
commanded “women of ease and their complacent daughters to put on sackcloth and
pray until the Spirit of God is poured out and the lawless city becomes a place of justice,righteousness, peace, and blessing” (Isa. 32:9-18 ). Our underprivileged sisters are not
fighting for their rights in the church or in the society, but visiting house to house and
gathering eternal fruit. (Matt. 19:30)
T HE S UFFERING G ENDER : Nearly four million women and children are sold and forced into
prostitution worldwide. Another two million young girls undergo mutilating circumcision
in Africa and the Middle East. Millions of female babies end up in a bucket after
abortions. 5,000 brides suffer dowry deaths by burning, every year in India. Womenfolk
generally suffer from health, financial, domestic and spiritual problems. They are
exploited by all, even by well off families and friends. Vast majority are illiterate and
their knowledge about God is very shallow and distorted. They need less preaching and
more compassion. If we are serious about evangelizing the world, then disenfranchising
half of the evangelistic force of women is outright stupidity. Women in general are
relational and function best in small groups. This is why they are such a run away success
in discipling the nations of the 10/40 Window.
T HE R OYAL L AW : Love the Lord with all you heart, soul and strength must be proved in
the crucible of loving your neighbor as yourself. The Lord Jesus did not preach or
admonish, but showed His love and compassion to every oppressed woman who came to
Him, whether the demon-possessed Mary Magdalene, Mary and Martha whose brother
had died, the woman suffering from a flow of blood for twelve years, the Samaritan
woman, the Syro-Phoenician woman or even the woman caught in adultery. All these
hurting women required love and encouragement, and all of them walked into the
kingdom instantly.
T HE E KKLESIA N EEDS W OMEN S KILLED IN M OURNING : In the paddy fields, most of the
workers are women, either planting the seed or reaping the harvest. Most of these women
are illiterate, untouchable low castes, poor and hurting (John 4:35). God is looking for
“women skilled in mourning to teach mourning for the forsaken land to their daughters
and lamentation to their neighbors…Unless this happens death will enter our homes
through the windows and kill our children” (Jer. 9:17-21). The TV and computer cables
are entering our homes through the windows and killing our teenagers. The churches are
full of women who are unskilled in mourning for others, resulting in the their own
families being destroyed. Women who are ever learning and never doing anything are
called weak, foolish and mean (2 Tim. 3:6-7). The church urgently needs women who
will tenderly introduce Jesus to the hurting women of this world.
J EWS WERE M ALE C HAUVINISTS : The Jews only counted the men, when Jesus fed the five
thousand (Matt. 14:21). After Pentecost, another five thousand “men” were added (Acts
4:4). This probably means that five thousand families were baptized. As Jewish families
tended to be very large, presumably several thousand people were baptized on this
occasion. Grudgingly, however, they had to acknowledge the presence of women in the
multitudes. Many of them were leading and prominent women. (Acts 4:32; 5:28; 5:14;
17:4,12)
T HE F EMALE P OPE : In A.D. 855-858, Pope John went into labor during a public function,
produced a baby boy, and instantly became Ms. Pope Joan. Thereafter, a special chair,
with a hole in the middle was made, to palpate the crotch of the newly elected person,
before announcing him a Pope. The veracity of this is in some doubt but the legend
refuses to die. However, historically, it is true that some Popes begat Popes through theirconcubines. So much for celibacy and infallibility of the Popes. If there can be a Papa in
the church, there is no valid reason why, once in a while, we cannot have a Mama,
especially as Julia the apostle, was a founder member of the Church of Rome, long before
Peter and Paul got there. (Rom. 16:7)
J ESUS S ENDS W OMEN TO G O AND T ELL THE B RETHREN : Jesus said to Mary Magdalene near
the tomb, “Go and tell My brethren...” (John 20:17). Millions of women since then have
gone out in obedience to the will of the Father to tell the brethren about the resurrected
Jesus. Just like men, He has purchased women also, with His own precious blood and
commissioned them to go and fulfill The Great Commission.
T HE M AN FROM M ACEDONIA T URNS O UT TO BE A W OMAN : Throughout the centuries, in spite
of the explosion of scholarship, Paul has been much misquoted. While in Troas, Paul had
seen a man from Macedonia in a vision, calling for help. This man turned out to be a
woman called Lydia. She was baptized in the river Gangites, like our holy river Ganges.
Troas is the famous site where the Trojan War was fought for a glamorous woman called
Helen of Troy. A thousand ships were launched but they lost, so they used a huge wooden
horse to smuggle soldiers into the city. Much later Paul and his party launched out from
here and planted the first Ekklesia of Europe in the house of a woman, Lydia. She was the
leader of the Ekklesia (Acts 16:9-15). Tragically, the hills of Philippi were taken over by
religious monks with polluted minds. They built monasteries and for a thousand years
banned the entry of females. Later the male dominated European church, subjugated
women and influenced the rest of the world to do the same. What a travesty of Paul’s
teachings and practices!
D ECORATING THE B RIDE : “Submit to each other” does not mean just women submitting to
men but vice-versa also (Eph. 5:19). While a clique of controlling coterie of men impose
their diktat on women in the church and quote mistranslated Scriptures to maintain their
hegemony, we thank God that thousands of great little ladies like Lydia and the Samaritan
woman, are launching out everyday, to seek and to save their long lost sisters of this
world. While the world is obsessed with the half naked glamorous women of Hollywood,
grotesquely dressed in designer clothes, these humble women are lovingly decorating the
Bride of Christ in pure white linen, wiping their tears and restoring a loving relationship
with Jesus. PTL
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done" and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way"

jaapo
Kapitein
Kapitein
Berichten: 991
Lid geworden op: 19 jan 2011 16:03

Re: Johannes en Paulus en de vrouwen.

Berichtdoor jaapo » 07 sep 2011 14:16

Jammer van de moeite, maar zulke lange lappen tekst met een afgeleide mening vind ik geen waardevolle bijdrage aan een discussie. En dan ook nog in het Engels! En dan ook nog één boek. Ik tel dit dus niet mee.
Mijn motto: gezang 7, Liedboek voor de Kerken = Lied 316 NLB

Janvanverweg
Luitenant
Luitenant
Berichten: 720
Lid geworden op: 09 mar 2011 15:08
Locatie: Azie

Re: Johannes en Paulus en de vrouwen.

Berichtdoor Janvanverweg » 07 sep 2011 14:58

jaapo schreef:Jammer van de moeite, maar zulke lange lappen tekst met een afgeleide mening vind ik geen waardevolle bijdrage aan een discussie. En dan ook nog in het Engels! En dan ook nog één boek. Ik tel dit dus niet mee.
jammer dat je het nietwaardevol vindt om secundaire redenen; Victor Choudrie laat zien dat Pulus beslist niet vrouw onvriendelijk was en vrouwen alle ruimte gaf!
relevant dus voor het topic. Hij legt de vrouw onvriendelijkheid bij de latere kerk!
je wijst het af omdat het een afgeleide mening is. jammer. laat ik het mijn mening maken (daarom voegde ik het ook toe) wordt het daardoor waardevoller?
het is idd een lang stuk, maar omdat er geen link naar te leggen valt moest ik het wel volledig weergeven. het ondergraaft gangbare meningen, dat is zeker. maar klopt de onderbouwing, dat is belangrijk!
dat het in het engels is, tja k kon kiezen uit dat, hindi of een andere aziatische taal :)
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done" and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way"

Gebruikersavatar
meribel
Kolonel
Kolonel
Berichten: 3872
Lid geworden op: 24 jan 2011 14:15

Re: Johannes en Paulus en de vrouwen.

Berichtdoor meribel » 07 sep 2011 19:12

interessant topic,
m.i. is de post van janvanverweg ook te lang om te lezen. Een boek is te lezen maar op een computerschermpje is zo'n lang verhaal echt teveel van het goede ( zonder alinea's en in het engels leest het ook niet echt lekker weg )


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