Er staat een Jehova’s getuige aan de deur

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Jort
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Berichtdoor Jort » 18 dec 2006 19:30

Loëlla schreef:Je valt in herhaling, 't is al de 3e keer dat je het vermeld.
Sinds de 1e vermelding ben ik op zoek gegaan, maar op internet is niets fatsoenlijks te vinden. Affijn, als ik iets gevonden heb zie je het wel verschijnen.

Wat vind je trouwens van de rest: bv wat ik zei over de naam Jehovah?



Huh? Op internet zoeken naar iets wat een wezenlijk onderdeel van je leer ondersteunt? Sorry maar dat verbaast mij. Als ik mij ooit zou willen aansluiten bij de Jehovah's zou ik wel redelijke argumenten willen horen.

De rest volg ik niet zo, want aangezien je dit vooralsnog niet weet te weerleggen, heb ik mijn ernstige twijfels bij de rest. Het geeft immers aan, dat jullie ideeen minder redelijk zijn als je doet voorkomen. Zoals ik zei neem ik je pas serieus als je eert hierop redelijke tegenargumenten geeft (los van je bijbelinterpretatie).

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Loëlla
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Berichtdoor Loëlla » 18 dec 2006 19:57

Jort schreef:Huh? Op internet zoeken naar iets wat een wezenlijk onderdeel van je leer ondersteunt? Sorry maar dat verbaast mij. Als ik mij ooit zou willen aansluiten bij de Jehovah's zou ik wel redelijke argumenten willen horen.

Tjah, je wil iets horen los van Jehovah's Getuigen, dat is niet gemakkelijk te vinden op internet. Ik ben ook naarstig op zoek achter info over jouw jaartal, daar vind ik maar amper uitleg van, niks eigenlijk.

Na laaang zoeken vond ik dit:
Wikipedia schreef:The Fall of Jerusalem happened most likely in 607 BC when taking into account prophecy and expectations of the Jews for the arrival of the Messiah.


Als je een goeie link hebt, let me know!

Jort
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Berichtdoor Jort » 18 dec 2006 22:30

er zal ongetwijfeld veel meer te vinden zijn, dit is een van de eerste links die ik vond.

Is 607bce the correct date for the fall of Jerusalem?
Is it important?



It is if you are one of Jehovah's witnesses. This date is now positioned as the primary basis for the many significant ‘prophecies’ and ‘claims’ which have been proclaimed by the Jehovah’s Witness movement worldwide.



Before I go any further, let me just briefly outline the background to my own current situation.



I am currently still known as one of Jehovah’s witnesses and have been for the last 27 years. The JW belief system is all I have ever known. Most of my family are still in the “truth”, as is also the case for my wife’s family.



Up until a year ago, whenever I read the date “607 BCE” in the various magazines and literature that the Watchtower publish, I had no reason to doubt that the Society had a sound basis for applying this dating protocol in support of their teachings.



If you too are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses reading this, you will no doubt agree with me that the norm is take for granted any of the information we are “fed” with as being absolutely rock solid.



Why?……………Because the information comes directly from the Governing Body. That’s why!



As a devout JW, I was always left completely satisfied with any of the Society’s assertions for dating. Indeed, I think most JW’s take it as gospel, anything that the Society comes out with.



For me, my confidence in the Governing Body was always unreserved as is no doubt the case for millions of other JW’s worldwide who also feel the same.



My feeling was that the Society would obviously have thoroughly checked out all the historical and archaeological evidence available and would only have used reliable dates, wouldn’t they.



Wouldn’t they?



WRONG!



At the beginning of this year, my brother in law challenged me to investigate something for him. Being an Oxford University Graduate, he explained that he had done some research on the 607 BCE date and had found it somewhat impossible to come up with anything remotely similar to the date which the Society adopts.



This is where the challenge came in; He wanted me to show to him both the Historical and Biblical evidence to substantiate the Society’s claim for the 607 date.



Naturally, having confidence in the Society as being “God’s channel of communication”, I accepted the challenge and started a 4 month research project to verify the Watchtower’s teachings.



I started my research by telephoning the British Museum and spoke to Mr Walker, the Assistant Curator of Babylonian Antiquities. He became pivotal in my researching of the Society’s teaching.



I exhaustively questioned Mr Walker about all the evidence that I had already come up with in support of the 587 BCE date and went on to ask him why historians favour this date over the Society’s 607 BCE date.



In response, he explained that there is numerous evidence to back up the 587 BCE date, and thus, directed me not only to all the artefacts available, but also to all the books I should study in order to make up my own mind.



By now, this challenge had become so import to me that I decided to go and visit the museum to see the artefacts to prove it for myself.



The more I researched this 607 BCE date, the more evidence I was finding that this “607 BCE” date just could not be right. In fact, I just couldn’t find anything on this date and was struggling to back up the Society in their dating.



During one of the telephone conversations with Mr Walker, he suggested that I should read a book by Carl Olof Jonnson called “The Gentile Times Reconsidered”.



So, I went out and bought this book and found that I just couldn’t put it down. I ended up reading it three times and went through it scrupulously to try and find some kind of “substantiation” for the Society’s teaching on the “607 BCE” date.



I just had to prove the “587 BCE” date wrong. Afterall, if I couldn’t, it would have meant that the Governing Body had got it wrong…………surely not!



Besides, everything comes directly from God through his “Channel of communication”……………

………………………………….Doesn’t it?

………………“Of course it does!” I thought.



So, I continued to go through all the evidence I had with a fine tooth comb in order to find something that would prove the Society’s teaching on 607 BCE.



But, this became impossible to do. I just couldn’t find anything. Nothing at all!



By now, I had become desperate to find some answers. So, in this desperation, I decided to write to the Governing Body in Brooklyn in the hope that they would be able to shed some “light” on “our” teaching of the 607 BCE date.



The letter eventually took me 20 hours to put together because I felt that it was absolutely imperative that I get my facts right. With all the information I had researched, I collated it in such a way that it would read like a report, and thus make the points easier for the Society to respond to.



I requested their help in answering the numerous questions I had posed to them in order for me to go back to my brother-in-law with the firm proof to support the “607 BCE” date teaching.



My letter included a summary of the information I had found in the “The Gentile Times Reconsidered” book, however, what I didn’t do was refer to it or make any mention that I had read it as this would have revealed I had been reading what the Society classifies as “apostate literature”.



As you will see when you read the letters I sent to the Society on the links below, the real source of the research is of course acknowledged and is published with the permission of the copyright owners.



After reading my letter, please go on to read the first “reply” that I received from the Society which did absolutely nothing to satisfy my questions about their dating methods.



You will see that as a result of the frustrating reply I got, I wrote another letter, only this time, rather than sending it to the Brooklyn Bethel and forwarding a copy to the British Branch, I actually addressed it to the British Branch instead.



In conclusion, I leave you to make up your own mind, but just remember this:



We should always be looking for
“the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help us God”.





NO MATTER HOW HARD IT IS TO ACCEPT.

Jort
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Lid geworden op: 10 jul 2006 19:06

Berichtdoor Jort » 18 dec 2006 22:32

er blijkt dus nog véél meer op internet te vinden te zijn. Kun je dat echt niet vinden na even zoeken?


The Destruction of Jerusalem: 586BCE or 607 BCE?



Jehovah's Witnesses teach the destruction of Jerusalem took place in 607 B.C.E. when they believe the beginning of the end days began. What if it happened in 586 B.C.E.? What would that do to the Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs on the end days? The following information will be dealing with the time period when the destruction of Jerusalem took place historically with plenty of information with facts and evidence proving the Jehovah's Witnesses have been deceived to believe inaccurate information which shows the Watchtower organization to be false.



According to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society the year 1914 C.E. (A.D.) marks the beginning of the end of this world. The Watchtower bases their beliefs on the date of 607 B.C.E. in reference to when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem. Everything hinges on this date being accurate for what they preach concerning the 'end days'. If 607 B.C.E. is not accurate then the date they believe marked 'the beginning of the end' is wrong and thus their foundation is false. What evidence do they have for 607 B.C.E. being historically correct? This article will deal with the truth concerning that period of time and will give scholarly sources which can be easily found.



Jehovah's Witnesses preach the message of judgment to come and of a new world. They have been preaching the 'end to come' since the times of the founder, Charles Russell. Charles Russell was the founder of this Organization which started in the late 1800's and preached 'the end is near.' Charles Russell taught that "The Millennium of peace and blessing would be introduced by forty years of trouble, beginning slightly in 1874 and increasing until social chaos should prevail in 1914." (The Watchtower Reprints, October 1890, p. 1243) Charles Russell taught that 1874 marked the beginning of 'the times of trouble' in reference to the end to come which would take place forty years after 1874. He taught that 1914 would mark the end of this chaos and Armageddon would take place then.



Quotes from Charles Russell:

"The date of the close of that 'battle' is definitely marked in Scripture as October, 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874." (The Watchtower Reprints, January 15, 1892, p.1355)



"We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (The Watchtower Reprints, July 15, 1894, p. 1672)



"The 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced." (The Time Is at Hand (SS-2), 1907 ed., p. 101)

Charles Russell, the founder of this organization, taught that 1874 marked the beginning of the end and that 1914 marked the end known as 'Armageddon'. He claimed that they were dates given to him by God. Today it is obvious that 1914 did not see the end of the world known as 'Armageddon'. Charles Russell was a man who prophesied things to come which ended up not happening and therefore he is defined as a false prophet.. Russell also taught that Christ's second coming took place invisibly in 1874, "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874 A.D., according to the testimony of the prophets, to those who have ears to hear." (The Battle of Armageddon, 1897) Charles Russell taught that Jesus' second coming took place in 1874, the 'times of the end' started in 1874, and that 1914 was the end not the beginning. This is significantly different from what they teach now.



The founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses Organization died in 1916 and a new leader was to take his place. Judge Rutherford was the one to succeed Russell and continued the false dates and predictions. In the book called "Creation" Rutherford teaches that 1799 marks the times of the end and that 1874 is when the second coming of Jesus was due. Here are his words:

"The campaign is briefly, yet graphically, described in the prophecy, verses 40-44; and its completed in 1799 marks, according to the prophet's own words, the beginning of 'the time of the end'...When that time should arrive, what was to be expected? Jehovah answers: "Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." (Daniel 12:4) From shortly after 1799, the date of the beginning of 'the time of the end'...There are two important dates here that we must not confuse, but clearly differentiate; namely, the beginning of 'the time of the end' and the beginning of the presence of the Lord. ''The time of the end' embraces a period from 1799 A.D. to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan's empire and the establishment of the kingdom of Messiah. The time of the Lord's second presence dates from 1874 and is during the later part of the period known as 'the time of the end.'" (Creation, pp. 314&316&319, 1927)

Rutherford taught Daniel 2:40-44 started in 1799 which marked the beginning of 'the time of the end' to come. He also that the beginning of the Lord's second presence started in 1874. Rutherford continued to teach that the date of Jesus second coming was in 1874 but made a change in when 'the time of the end' began. Judge Rutherford also went on to predict a date for which God would destroy Christendom in 1918 and those who did not die would become followers of Russell's teachings.

"The people who are the strength of Christendom shall be cut off in the brief but terribly eventful period beginning in 1918 A.D. A third part are 'burned with fire in the midst of the city.' Fire symbolizes destruction. One large part of the adherents of ecclesiasticism will die from pestilence and famine. (Deut. 32:24.)After 1918 the people supporting churchianity will cease to be its supporters, be destroyed as adherents, by the spiritual pestilence of errors abroad, and by the famine of the Word of God among them. The Sword of the Spirit (Eph. 6:17), which is the Word of God, will be wielded in the hands of 'Present Truth' believers in such a manner as to cause conscientious supporters of ecclesiasticism to cease to be supporters." (The Finished Mystery (SS-7), 1917 ed., p. 398-399)



"Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of 'Christianity.'" (The Finished Mystery (SS-7), 1917 ed., p. 485)

Rutherford predicted that God would destroy those of Christendom and that all who remained would become followers of his teachings. This did not happen and therefore it makes him a false prophet. Another quote from Russell: "That the harvest began in 1878, there is ample and convincing proof. The end of the harvest is due in the spring of 1918." (The Watchtower Reprints, May 1, 1918, p. 6243) Just as Russell taught that after1874 there would be forty years of the harvest or "times of trouble", Rutherford taught the same from 1878 to 1918 which would complete the period of harvest. Again the end result the same with false dates predicted and many people deceived.



From Then Until Now!



Now it has been approximately eighty five years later after Russell's death so what do Jehovah's Witnesses preach concerning the end of the world? Here are some quotes that are currently being taught by Jehovah's Witnesses:

"The present wicked system of things, which extends worldwide, entered its last days in 1914, and some of the generation alive then will also be on hand to witness its complete end in the "great tribulation."...Why do Jehovah's Witnesses say that it was in 1914 that "the last days" began? "The year 1914 is marked by Bible prophecy. For details regarding the chronology, see pages 95-97, under the main heading "Dates." The correctness of the date is shown by the fact that world conditions foretold to mark this time period have come to pass since 1914 exactly as foretold." (Reasoning From The Scriptures, Last Days, pp. 234&239)

The year 1914 is now the year in which the Jehovah's Witnesses teach started the beginning of the end. They also teach that those who were alive from the 1914 generation will be alive to witness the complete end and tribulation. Here is what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society say is the evidence for 1914 being the date marking the beginning of 'the last days.' "Two lines of evidence point to that year: (1) Bible chronology and (2) the events since 1914 in fulfillment of prophecy. Here we will consider the chronology..." (Reasoning, p. 95) On page 96 the Watchtower presents the evidence for the 1914 date going back to 607 B.C.E. which is the main date for what they teach concerning the last days. The Watchtower says "The book of Daniel states that it was in "the second year" of Nebuchadnezzar's kingship (probably counting from the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E." (Insight to the Scriptures, p.481) Does the Watchtower have evidence to back up the foundational date of 607 B.C.E.?



If the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society dates are wrong on the 607 B.C.E. date then their teaching of 'the last days' from 1914 C.E. is false, and if that is false then the message of the Watchtower is false. This is very important to understand! What evidence is there to look into? I have went to great lengths to find solid information regarding this issue and encourage you to examine it for yourselves. The following information is what I have found online, by emails, by Encyclopedia's, Dictionaries, Archaeologists, Historians, Rabbi's, and Scholars.



The following are some e-mails that I sent out to Jewish Rabbis and the Smithsonian Institute:



To: Peter J. Haas, Abba Hillel Silver Chair of Jewish Studies, Director, Samuel Rosenthal Center for Judaic Studies/Rabbi Larry Raphael, Director, Dept. of Adult Jewish Growth, Union of American Hebrew Congregations:

Question: "I have been browsing around for some information for an historical account. Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jewish nation a long time ago. I have found most information stating that took place in 586 B.C.E., but some say 607 B.C.E.. Do you have any information that can help, websites, books, etc."

Reply: "If you want just basic information on Nebuchadnezzar, you can turn to any good Bible encyclopedia or dictionary. The Anchor Bible Dictionary is a very good source and I would recommend you start there...As far as I know, the scholarly consensus is that the Exile began in 586B.C.E."

To: Ask the Rabbi, Jews for Judaism, Toronto, Canada:

Question: "I have been browsing around for some information for an historical account. Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jewish nation a long time ago. I have found most information stating that took place in 586 B.C.E., but some say 607 B.C.E.. Do you have any information that can help, websites, books, etc."

Reply: "Most historians date the destruction of the first Temple to approximately 586 B.C.E. Traditional Jewish sources date it to about 423 B.C.E. I've not heard of other dates proposed."

To: The Smithsonian Institution:

Question: "I have been browsing around for some information for an historical account. Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jewish nation a long time ago. I have found most information stating that took place in 586 B.C.E., but some say 607 B.C.E. Do you have any information that can help, websites, books, etc."

Reply: "The accepted date for Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of Jerusalem is generally 587/586 BC. Our Curator of Middle East Archaeology recommends reading David Noel Freedman's chapter entitled "The Chronology of Israel and the Ancient Near East," in E. Ernest Wright's (edited) The Bible and the Ancient Near East ,A Doubleday Anchor Book, 1965. This book provides both biblical chronology and the chronologies of other contemporary countries, some of the arguments, and a chart of the Near East."

The following is information from some online archaeologists.



From: The Temple Mount in Jerusalem

Website: http://www.templemount.org/destruct1.html

By: Lambert Dolphin

Quote from the website: "The Lamentations of Jeremiah are read every year, to this day, by devout Jews gathering at the Western Wall of the Temple Mount on the 9th day of the month of Av. It was on the 9th of Av, 586 B.C.E. that the magnificent temple of Solomon was destroyed. It was on the 9th of Av in the year 70 C.E. that the Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans."

His reply to me: "Dear Mr. Powers, All main stream Christian and Jewish Bible scholars take the 9th of Av, 586 BC as the date for the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar."

His suggestions for further research:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/n/nebuchad.asp

http://www.christiananswers.net/diction ... ezzar.html

The following is information from Online Encyclopedias and Reference Material:

"There was a fortified city on the site of old Jerusalem at the beginning of history. It was destroyed and rebuilt under the rule of Egypt, Babylonia, Greece, and Rome. David, king of the Israelites, captured Jerusalem from the Jebusites in about 1000 BC. King Solomon, his son, extended the city and built the great temple that stood until 586 BC when it was destroyed by King Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon. In the 50 years of their Babylonian captivity the Israelites remembered Jerusalem and sang the songs of Zion: "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning." (Compton's Encyclopedia Online)

"Babylonian Captivity, term applied to the period between the deportation of the Jews from Palestine to Babylon by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II and their release in 538BC by the Persian king Cyrus. Two main deportations are recorded: one in 597BC, when Israelite nobles, warriors, and artisans were transported; and one in 586BC when Nebuchadnezzar's army destroyed Jerusalem, and the major part of the remaining Israelite community was taken to Babylon. At the time of the second deportation an important group of Israelites fled to Egypt; thereafter, only the poorest peasants were allowed to remain in Palestine, and the political dissolution of independent Israel was an accomplished fact. The majority of the Jews living in Babylon did not return to Palestine at the end of the exile period, but became a part of the Diaspora, or body of Jews dispersed among nations outside Palestine." (Encarta Encyclopedia MSN Online)

"The fall of Jerusalem in 586BC was pretty much the end of everything. For most nations, this would be the end of the story. But, obviously God had a plan. Judah was reorganized into a province of the Babylonian empire. After the puppet Babylonian king was killed by the neighboring king of Ammon (your remember the Ammonites), many remaining Jews fled to Egypt taking Jeremiah with them against his will. They joined some of the other refugees of Judea there. Meanwhile, the Babylonian deportees were conscripted into various public works, like draining the land, building dams, and other slave labor. They kept their Hebrew names and preserved their religious and national identification. The dispersion of the Jews, know as the Diaspora began during this time. The Jews spread along the Mediterranean coastline and in nearby countries. The Edomites meanwhile taking advantage of the situation moved in to S. Judah. This was about the time of Obadiah. The Babylonians had become complacent, and had neglected the security of their empire. Cyrus, head of the Persian confederation subsequently conquered Babylon in 539 BC, and in 538 issued an edict allowing the return of the Jews, who were clearly unhappy, to Judah. He also authorized the rebuilding of the temple (see Ezra). Cambyses II succeeded Cyrus, and spread Persian rule to Egypt in 525BC. When he died, an imposter who claimed to be Cyrus's son took the throne. His name was Darius I and after much struggle took control of the army. He continued Cyrus's edicts to Judah, and the temple was dedicated in 515 BC with much rejoicing by the Jerusalem Jews." (Reference Desk Online: refdesk.com)



"A weakened and divided country could not sustain its independence indefinitely; consequently, Israel fell to Assyria in about 722BC and the Babylonians conquered Judah in 586BC. This defeat resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the exile of most of the Jews to Babylon -- the so-called Babylonian captivity." (Arab website: arab.net)



"Babylonian captivity in the history of Israel, the period from the fall of Jerusalem (586 B.C.) to the reconstruction in Palestine of a new Jewish state (after 538 B.C.). After the capture of the city by the Babylonians some thousands, probably selected for their prosperity and importance, were deported to Mesopotamia. The number of those who remained is disputed by scholars. Such deportations were commonplace in Assyrian and Babylonian policy. The exiles maintained close links with their kinsmen at home, as is clear from Ezekiel, the prophet of the early years of the Exile. In 538 B.C., Cyrus the Great, the new master of the empire, initiated a new attitude toward the nations and decreed the restoration of worship at Jerusalem." (The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition/online)

The following are from online Bible dictionaries:

"A third time he came against it, and deposed Jehoiachin, whom he carried into Babylon, with a large portion of the population of the city, and the sacred vessels of the temple, placing Zedekiah on the throne of Judah in his stead. He also, heedless of the warnings of the prophet, entered into an alliance with Egypt, and rebelled against Babylon. This brought about the final siege of the city, which was at length taken and utterly destroyed (B.C. 586). Zedekiah was taken captive, and had his eyes put out by order of the king of Babylon, who made him a prisoner for the remainder of his life." (Easton's Bible Dictionary)

"Ere this happened, Jerusalem had been totally destroyed. Nebuchadnezzar had commenced the final siege of Jerusalem in the ninth year of Zedekiah --his own seventeenth year (B.C. 588)--and took it two years later, B.C. 586." (Smith's Bible Dictionary)

Historically, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has nothing Scholarly to back up their alleged date of 607 B.C.E. when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem. Encyclopedias, Dictionaries, Historians, Scholars, Jewish Rabbis, and Archaeologists agree on the date being 586 B.C.E. and not 607 B.C.E.! Only the Watchtower claims that 607 B.C.E. is when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem, but the evidence proves it is not historically correct. The foundational date for the Watchtower's teachings is false, thus showing once again they have set wrong dates in reference to "the time of the end" to come. They said at first it started in 1874 A.D. and 1914 A.D. was the end to come. Then it was changed to 1799 A.D. with 1878 A.D. starting 'the harvest for the beginning of the end', and 1918 A.D. was 'the end to come.' Now the date is 1914 A.D. that starts 'the beginning of the end', and 'there will be some of that generation who will remain alive until the end is come.' The Jehovah's Witness Organization was built upon false dates and continues to build upon sand for evidence.



Share this with your Jehovah's Witness friends, family, whoever that the dates which the Watchtower base their 'end days' message are today false too. Lead them to the truth, Jesus the Christ.



May God bless you and this information to share with those of the Jehovah's Witness Organization, and lead them to Jesus Christ.

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Loëlla
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Berichtdoor Loëlla » 19 dec 2006 19:40

Jort schreef:er blijkt dus nog véél meer op internet te vinden te zijn. Kun je dat echt niet vinden na even zoeken?

Hallo zeg :puh: ja dit ben ik tegengekomen (en nog veel meer van dit genre), maar dat kan je toch niet onder de categorie "objectief" zetten?
Je wou een artikel dat losstaat van mijn bijbelinterpretatie, maar je post zelf een artikel dat bol staat van andermans interpretaties over hoe fout wij wel zijn?

Ik zoek dus een artikel dat objectief weergeeft hoe ze aan dat jaartal komen, want daar vind ik zo goed als geen info over. Het jaartal wordt wel telkens gegeven, maar niet uitgelegd vanwaar de zekerheid.
DAT zoek ik dus, een artikel dat uitsluitend gaat over het jaartal.

En dus geen artikel dat eens zal uitleggen hoe fout Jehovah's Getuigen zijn.


Zo, ik stop momenteel met mijn zoekactie omdat ik 1. weinig goed materiaal vind en 2. nog met examens zit.

Jort
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Berichtdoor Jort » 21 dec 2006 17:39

Loëlla schreef:
Jort schreef:er blijkt dus nog véél meer op internet te vinden te zijn. Kun je dat echt niet vinden na even zoeken?

Hallo zeg :puh: ja dit ben ik tegengekomen (en nog veel meer van dit genre), maar dat kan je toch niet onder de categorie "objectief" zetten?
Je wou een artikel dat losstaat van mijn bijbelinterpretatie, maar je post zelf een artikel dat bol staat van andermans interpretaties over hoe fout wij wel zijn?

Ik zoek dus een artikel dat objectief weergeeft hoe ze aan dat jaartal komen, want daar vind ik zo goed als geen info over. Het jaartal wordt wel telkens gegeven, maar niet uitgelegd vanwaar de zekerheid.
DAT zoek ik dus, een artikel dat uitsluitend gaat over het jaartal.

En dus geen artikel dat eens zal uitleggen hoe fout Jehovah's Getuigen zijn.


Zo, ik stop momenteel met mijn zoekactie omdat ik 1. weinig goed materiaal vind en 2. nog met examens zit.


Nou, de bedoeling van het artikel hoeft niet te zijn een objectief beeld te willen geven van de Jehova's, als de argumenten maar objectief zijn. En dat lijken ze te zijn. Daar ging het mij om en niet om de oproep tot bekering, hoe juist ook. Dat laten we er nu even buiten.

Ik ben ook geen deskundige, maar in een 'neutraal' boek (Marc Van de Mieroop, History of the ANE) lees ik, dat de chronologie van het eerste millenium vrijwel zeker is. Ook wordt daar 587 genoemd als jaartal.

Aan jou dus de taak om met tegenbewijzen te komen, alvorens ik je verder serieus neem.

Uiteraard hoef je die niet noodzakelijkerwijs zelf te bedenken, er zijn ongetwijfeld Jehovah-getuigen deskundig op het gebied van Oude Nabije Oosten die hierover publiceren :P (nee dus) En anders kan de voorganger je ongetwijfeld verder helpen.

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marcel081276
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Berichtdoor marcel081276 » 23 sep 2007 19:52

er stonden vanmiddag nog jehova's aan de deur, ik heb helemaal geen problemen met die mensen alleen zei die man iets waar ik wel een beetje van schrok en verdrietig vond. hij zei ''al die goddeloze in deze smerige wereld'' dat vond ik wel triest.

groeten marcel
Psalm 46 : 1 God is een toevlucht!

CaptainCaveman

Berichtdoor CaptainCaveman » 23 sep 2007 20:27

Wilde je zeggen dat het niet zo is dan?

Als ik alleen al op het station loop, vraag ik me af waar het heen gaat met deze wereld. Kijk om je heen, internetfora/TV/kranten etc. Het moraal zinkt met een noodgang, en normen en waarden vervagen met de minuut.

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Flappie
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Berichtdoor Flappie » 23 sep 2007 20:31

Ja, dat roepen christenen al eeuwen dat de wereld ten onder gaat, dat er geen moraal meer is etc. Ik kan mij daar niet geheel in herkennen.
God bless mommy and matchbox cars
God bless dad and thanks for the stars
God hears amen wherever we are
And I love you

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marcel081276
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Berichtdoor marcel081276 » 23 sep 2007 20:32

nou dat het niet zo lekker gaat in de wereld kan iedereen zien, maar ik zie ook veel mooie dingen en mooie mensen en prachtige natuur enz.

groete marcel
Psalm 46 : 1 God is een toevlucht!

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Cornelius
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Berichtdoor Cornelius » 17 apr 2008 14:31

Vorige week na aanbellen bij mij een afspraak gemaakt (tegen II Joh. 10?) en vanmiddag is hij langs geweest: een aardige jonge man, met veel bijbelkennis. Een goed gesprek gehad a.d.h.v. hun boekje Wat leert de Bijbel echt?, min of meer een theologische discussie, waarin overeenkomsten in geloof aan bod kwamen, maar ook verschilpunten. Ik wilde het onderwerp "Waar zijn de doden?" bespreken en daarbij kwamen we op hun leer van "zielenslaap" tijdens de dood, lichamelijke versus geestelijke opstanding enzo; waarvan een (groot) deel van het verschil berust op verschillende formulering en interpretatie van bijbelteksten (zoals overigens ook binnen onze kerken!), hoewel ik ervan overtuigd was dat de 'ziel' van de mens (die hij uitlegde in OT-betekenis "levend wezen" wel voortleeft (maar hoe? dat weet ik ook niet). Maar dat er een hel bestaat, is duidelijk genoeg uit de Bijbel (zie bijv. Openb. 14:10, 11; 20:10), wat hij niet kon weerleggen, maar mij natuurlijk ook niet toegaf. Want alle JG's hebben over alle bijbelse onderwerpen dezelfde mening...! Ik vroeg hem wat er zou gebeuren als hij op een punt tot een ander inzicht zou komen; hij antwoorde dat hij bij de gemeenschap weg zou gaan; of proberen de anderen te vertuigen, waarna het inzicht vervolgens verwerkt zou worden in de officiële leer.
Wat hij voorzichtig zei, maar wel liet doorschemeren was dat je bij hun genootschap moet horen om behouden te worden - een zeer verwerpelijke, onbijbelse gedachte; het gaat om het persoonlijk geloof in Jezus Christus, de Zoon van God.
Overigens ben ik er niet van overtuigd dat zij niet behouden kunnen worden, al hebben ze andere gedachten over de natuur van Christus en de Drie-eenheid (wat hij een gevaarlijke dwaling vond). Het zijn toch menselijke, theologische formuleringen, die door beiden in alle ernst op de Bijbel gegrond worden?
Of zit het gevaar er voor hen in dat ze aan hun leiders dezelfde autoriteit toekennen als aan Gods Woord?
Het is nutteloos diepzinnigheden algemeen bevattelijk te maken
en alle waarheid is diepzinnig
(Herman Melville)

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elbert
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Berichtdoor elbert » 17 apr 2008 15:41

Cornelius schreef:Wat hij voorzichtig zei, maar wel liet doorschemeren was dat je bij hun genootschap moet horen om behouden te worden - een zeer verwerpelijke, onbijbelse gedachte; het gaat om het persoonlijk geloof in Jezus Christus, de Zoon van God.

Zomaar een vraag uit nieuwsgierigheid, maar vertrouwt hij erop dat hij behouden is door Hem?
Laat de woorden van mijn mond en de overdenking van mijn hart welgevallig zijn voor Uw aangezicht, HEERE, mijn rots en mijn Verlosser! (Ps. 19:15)

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Berichtdoor TheKeimpe » 18 apr 2008 14:28

Dat vraag ik me ook nog altijd af: zijn Jehova's getuigen eigenlijk wel zeker van hun behoud?

Riska

Berichtdoor Riska » 18 apr 2008 15:35

TheKeimpe schreef:Dat vraag ik me ook nog altijd af: zijn Jehova's getuigen eigenlijk wel zeker van hun behoud?

Nee dat zijn ze niet. Ze moeten er heel hard voor werken. Minstens zoveel uur langs de deuren, minstens zoveel verkopen etc. En dan nog zijn ze niet zeker.

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Race406
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Berichtdoor Race406 » 18 apr 2008 15:49

Cornelius schreef:Overigens ben ik er niet van overtuigd dat zij niet behouden kunnen worden, al hebben ze andere gedachten over de natuur van Christus en de Drie-eenheid (wat hij een gevaarlijke dwaling vond). Het zijn toch menselijke, theologische formuleringen, die door beiden in alle ernst op de Bijbel gegrond worden?
Of zit het gevaar er voor hen in dat ze aan hun leiders dezelfde autoriteit toekennen als aan Gods Woord?


Joh 3,36
Wie in de Zoon gelooft, heeft eeuwig leven; doch wie aan de Zoon ongehoorzaam is, zal het leven niet zien, maar de toorn Gods blijft op hem.

Rom 1,4
naar de geest der heiligheid door zijn opstanding uit de doden verklaard Gods Zoon te zijn in kracht, Jezus Christus, onze Here

1 Joh 5,13
Dit heb ik u geschreven, die gelooft in de naam van de Zoon Gods, opdat gij weet, dat gij eeuwig leven hebt.

Op 2,18
En schrijf aan de engel der gemeente te Tyatira: Dit zegt de Zoon Gods, die ogen heeft als een vuurvlam en zijn voeten zijn als koperbrons


Genoeg teksten die zeggen dat Jezus Gods Zoon is. Als je dan in alle ernst met de Bijbel bezig bent, dan KUN je niet anders dan zeggen dat Hij Gods Zoon is! Ontken je dat, dan kom je terecht bij
Openbaring 22,18 en 19: Ik betuig aan een ieder, die de woorden der profetie van dit boek hoort: Indien iemand hieraan toevoegt, God zal hem toevoegen de plagen, die in dit boek beschreven zijn; 19 en indien iemand afneemt van de woorden van het boek dezer profetie, God zal zijn deel afnemen van het geboomte des levens en van de heilige stad, welke in dit boek beschreven zijn.

Duidelijk toch?
Ik zie een poort wijd open staan... Die open poort leidt tot Gods Troon. GAAT DOOR! Laat NIETS (maar dan ook werkelijk niets of niemand!) u hinderen!


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